I'm stealing this quote : )
It is something he said on one of his recent podcasts. I thought it was quite Pascalian.
I suppose Calvin would say: "There are two kinds of people in this world: those whom God draws to Himself and those whom He does not...and He will always be successful."
I suppose from Calvin's perspective the quote is not incompatible, just incomplete.
Is this a false dichotomy I see before me?It's nonsense whatever it is... if this is the kind of quotes Christians need to 'keep the faith' then so be it.I'm looking for God, been challenging all the arguments.Not found any good arguments, not found God (and more importantly God has not found me) Am I a seeking or an avoider?
Hi Lee, Wow,this quote really got under your skin.Not sure why. Only you can answer your question 'Am I a seeking or an avoider'. I will just offer this. I believe Boa means by "seek" to seek with an open heart and mind. I think we both know people who DONT want there to be a God. They DONT want reality to be like that. Such a person might claim to be "looking" for God by challenging all the arguments, but this wouldn't seem to qualify as "seeking" the way I think Boa means. Again Lee, only you know the answer to your own question. I hope you figure that one out. Take care.
Lee,You sure you're seeking? If you keep your heart hard and your mind closed, all the new info in the world isn't going to help.
If you keep your heart hard and your mind closed, all the new info in the world isn't going to help.What does this mean? I honestly don't get it. If the Holy Spirit is indeed powerful and the Word of God cuts like a two-edged sword, I cannot comprehend how a person could have the power to keep themselves from this effect.
If the Holy Spirit is indeed powerful and the Word of God cuts like a two-edged sword, I cannot comprehend how a person could have the power to keep themselves from this effect.Some theologians say they can't (Calvinists). Arminians such as myself say men can harden their hearts and resist the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does convict them and enable them and this is through the hearing of the word, but if you close your mind to this you can resist and are culpable for it. It's part of the gift of volition given by the Creator.
Some theologians say they can't (Calvinists). Arminians such as myself say men can harden their hearts and resist the enabling power of the Holy Spirit.= Christian theologians really don't know.The Holy Spirit does convict them and enable them and this is through the hearing of the word, but if you close your mind to this you can resist and are culpable for it. It's part of the gift of volition given by the Creator.= But I do know and can assert it with authority without explaining how I reached the power and conviction of making such an assertion immediately after admitting none of us know!No wonder Christian youth get so confused.First you start off by explaining that different theologians have different opinions, thus undermining any authoritative assertion by any of them before your audience. Then you take a theological stance and assert. Goodness.I'm pretty sure this comment will be blocked, but I find it amusing seeing these contradictions and having what I say censored when I know I am asking some, what I consider, very "childlike" questions. Ironically, Jesus said we were supposed to be like little children to enter the kingdom, so can you fault me?Yours thoroughly confused by the simplicity of this contradiction (as I have been time and time again in every church or Bible school attended),Josh
= Christian theologians really don't know.no, it = there is disagreement among some Christians. Just like there is among non-theists about evolution.= But I do know and can assert it with authority without explaining how I reached the power and conviction of making such an assertion immediately after admitting none of us know!I was giving you the views, since you obviously didn't know. Why are you being a jerk about it?No wonder Christian youth get so confused.I wonder why atheist youth commit murder/suicides in Colorado? Maybe we could dispense with the silly genetic fallacy?First you start off by explaining that different theologians have different opinions, thus undermining any authoritative assertion by any of them before your audience. Then you take a theological stance and assert.So acknowledging a difference of opinion precludes me from forming my own? How does that work?
since you obviously didn't know.What?Why are you being a jerk about it?Why are you being condescending? :)I'm going home next week to the most hypocritical group of Christians on the planet, who recently kicked out a lifetime family friend from the church and won't even invite him to my brothers wedding because he slightly disagrees on one theological viewpoint. Namely, guess what? That our church is too focused on doctrine and details to love people properly. He feels like Lordship salvation and a strong Calvinistic stance is being used by the pastor to manipulate people in the church. So the church skipped the Biblical technique of a three-part process to disciplining this elder and basically told him he should resign or they would kick him out the next Sunday.bossmanham, don't take this personally. I just feel like all the theology in the world doesn't have any practical basis because it ends up just being used as a weapon to cause divisions.And goodness, if you have doubts about my understanding of Calvinism, for example, you want me to write out the definition of each leaf of T.U.L.I.P, in my own words with references? You want me to explain double pre-destination in detail with Biblical references? Want me to espouse Romans 10-11 and Paul's ending doxology and how the reinstatement of Israel plays into one's understanding of eschatology? Should I explain my understanding of soteriology and once-saved-always-saved and use big theological words when I do it? How about a quick ho-down on Open Theism and how it undermines Biblical support for God's complete sovereignty? Should I carefully and lucidly explain the potential interpretations of Ezekiel's temple? Do you want me to demonstrate a healthy knowledge of the three-part structure of the garden of Eden and how that mirrors the three-part structure of the tabernacle? What about a deep explanation as to how Jude quoting from the Book of Enoch does not undermine the canon? How about an explanation of Hymenaeous and Alexander and how casting a person over to Satan so their body can be destroyed but their soul saved on the day of judgment is a good thing? Should I explain the ransom theory of the atonement and why it is wrong? Should I write a paper on Calvin's view of Hebrews 6? Or perhaps I should explain what Jesus means when He says "if you do not believe, you are condemned already"? How about a detailed explanation of every classic proof of God's existence from Cosmological and Kalam to Ontological?What would it take to prove to you I do know this stuff?Those questions are easy to answer.My little sister is terrified I am going to hell and I don't know how to keep her from being scared.That's a hard question. So forgive me for being a jerk. I don't know who to talk to.Goodness, and all I want is one Christian... ONE CHRISTIAN... to understand. And if they cannot, I want them to admit I might be right. Goodness, what is so hard about that?Brian, you don't have to post this. I don't expect you to. I just have to get it out. I feel like I have the answers to these questions, but I can't get past the Christian god-complex and so nobody ever genuinely listens to me. They just start with the assumption I am wrong and in need of the cure they possess. They just forget I've seen the cure in action and guys, it sure looks like a placebo to me.
I'm still not sure what you're upset about with me. I was just giving my perspective on what you said. I'm sorry if I came across as condescending. I'm not sure what you want me to understand. Feel free to e-mail me with questions. I'll listen and try to understand. I'm not going to pretend to be the most capable apologist in the world. Brian is probably more capable than I am. You could even e-mail people like William Lane Craig or Greg Kokul.
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